Jump to content
Lindsey_Carter

Your thoughts... Old/New Testament... - The Gay Christian Network

Recommended Posts

Lindsey_Carter
Posted

I'm no Bible expert. Its been several years since I have read through the Bible so I don't know the exact locations of scripture even though I'm sure if I put more time/effort into it I definitely could. However, this is more for my own education and thoughts so I figured this was the place to go!

The bible says for a man to lie with another man is an abomination to the Lord - in the OLD testament. The old testament also says if you look at someone with lust in your heart, to PLUCK YOUR EYE OUT. It also says that to work on the sabbath day you will be administered to a punishment of stoning. It also says that a man shall not wear women's clothing, and a woman shall not wear men's clothing. Also that we should not eat the meat or touch the skin of a pig. And the list goes on and on with laws/rules that we really don't see many abide by in modern society. Now I do know many religions say that according to the Bible, when Jesus died on the cross, it meant an end of Old Testament laws unless they were in accordance with “love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind…and to love your neighbor as yourself” (Matthew 22:37-39). So essentially I was pretty much told by a pastor that the Old Testament really doesn't have much emphasis on Christianity today besides the Ten Commandments of course which go along with loving your God and loving your neighbor.

The prohibiting of homosexuality is also in the Old Testament. Since many today no longer view the laws of the Old Testament as actual guiding principles for their life, why do many choose to use one specific Old Testament law as an arguement against gays?


Share this post


Link to post
Posted

They do it because they think it evidences thier point, and they dont think about if the verse is really relevant for today's world. It also seems that there is lots of grace available for anyone except the gay community.

The NT law of love and the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles sums up what our obligations as Christians are. The Ten Commandments are a part of that, The Book of Leviticus in its entirety is useful to show us the nature of God and His character (say for example treatment of the poor), but is not binding law on us today. The name of the book gives away its purpose...Levi was the OT tribe that the Priesthood came from.

By the way...the OT says that male on male sex is an abomination, it does not say that it is an abomination unto God. There are other passages where the term abomination unto God is actually used. Also the word detestable is a better fit.


Share this post


Link to post
Lindsey_Carter
Posted

It just seemed to me like they were taking one amoung many "rules" and making it more than what it is just to try to have some sort of reason to be homophobic. When really it seems that religions have made it where those "rules" are no longer used anyways so basically I guess what I'm saying is I don't understand how someone can use this as an arguement but it seems religion itself has generally disqualified this as an aguement against homosexuality since most who are actually knowledgeable about religion no longer consider the rules of the OT to be guidelines for today's world. I don't see how anyone then can use religion or God as an excuse to say gay marriage or homosexuality is a sin.


Share this post


Link to post
Posted

Dear Lindsey.
I am glad you asked for there is much misunderstanding, abuse, power plays,i.e. people will read and use what they want to use "the Good News" to their own advantage, and this (I think -though I am no expert), comes from their own insecurities, fear and ignorance.
I also think, that it is fair to say, just look around you, the people you know and so on,......love Drama! They are not happy unless they can make you or someone else miserable, sad, insecure, angry mad and some believe it or not love pushing other peoples "buttons" to set them off, and even (You might find this hard to believe, but then if we believe that Christ is the Son of God and rose from the dead, then anything is possible!) Some people and you can google it, have actually, pushed others into committing suicide ( Google News search results here&gt http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4ADFA_enUS390US390&q=Women++using+the+Internet+causes+13+year+old+boy+to+commit+suicide .
OK, since I"ve addressed that issue or showed you how mean some people are and what they enjoy doing, just because they can.
So why not Use the Bible as a weapon, because they can pretend that God really has said this or that, but in all honesty, you can not pick and use and manipulate, The "Good News" as a to hurt others, hide behind, and justify your hate and bigotry, because They say that The Bible says that it is OK for them to do so.
Very Good question(s)
Before I go on You can check these resources:
1)" What the Bible Really says About Homosexuality" , Daniel A. Helminiak, Ph.D. (Alamo Square Press) 3rd Printing 1995 (at least my copy says that)
2)"Living in Sin?" A Bishop rethinks Human Sexuality, John Shelby Spong (Harper and Row)

OK the Short and long of it.
God gave Moses 10 Commandments, none of those Ten says ANYTHING about gays, That Is the law, The Covenant between God and His People.
I hate to say it, but I think Moses, was a bit Emo! After all After God Did all the Things He did for Moses, and chose him to Bring the Ten Commandments down, He was the 1st person to brake them! Quite Literally! He saw the golden calf and the people of Israel, worshiping it and so he broke the Tablets over the false gods head, in a fit of anger. (This was waaaaaaay before Anger management!, Which by all accounts he could have used!)

So since this was before Xerox or any other copying machine, Moses had to go back up the mountain to ask God for another copy. Ether he has not read them himself or he just forgot what they were and God had said (The 10 Commandments) This was to be known as the Covenant. But Moses Being Moses, wasn't happy with just the TEN, so he add a PS and a really long one at that.
It was called The Mosaic Law BTW that PS Moses Wrote totaled a wobbling 613 Laws!!!! and many of them as you have so astutely pointed out was in direct conflict with the law of the 10 Commandments, Ok God said: "Thou shalt not kill" Moses on the other hand says, "In Exodus 31:14 we read that Sabbath violators were to be stoned to death. ... for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. ... in stoning people therefore we believe there will be no punishment for ... And likewise, the Sabbath violator must await that last great day of ..." . I guess wondering around in the desert for 40 years will do that do a person, make them a might confused.
Yes It is Written there, By Moses, who in his Pride, felt that he could improve on Gods Law,....... and he had the arrogance to it. So It does not say this, Sometimes you can read something but you need to read between the lines.
Moses was to Lead the Children Of Israel to the promise land, and he did, BUT,.........................Because of his arrogance, because he added to the Law of God who gave us only 10 Commandments,.....................God would Not allow Moses to ENTER into that Promised Land. Because Moses had Sinned, in his pride and arrogance,........Numbers 20:1-12 : The Death of Miriam
20:1 And the people of Israel, the whole congregation, came into the wilderness of Zin in the first month, and the people stayed in Kadesh. And Miriam died there and was buried there.

The Waters of Meribah
2 Now there was no water for the congregation. And they assembled themselves together against Moses and against Aaron. 3 And the people quarreled with Moses and said, “Would that we had perished when our brothers perished before the Lord! 4 Why have you brought the assembly of the Lord into this wilderness, that we should die here, both we and our cattle? 5 And why have you made us come up out of Egypt to bring us to this evil place? It is no place for grain or figs or vines or pomegranates, and there is no water to drink.” 6 Then Moses and Aaron went from the presence of the assembly to the entrance of the tent of meeting and fell on their faces. And the glory of the Lord appeared to them, 7 and the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 8 “Take the staff, and assemble the congregation, you and Aaron your brother, and tell the rock before their eyes to yield its water. So you shall bring water out of the rock for them and give drink to the congregation and their cattle.” 9 And Moses took the staff from before the Lord, as he commanded him.

Moses Strikes the Rock
10 Then Moses and Aaron gathered the assembly together before the rock, and he said to them, “Hear now, you rebels: shall we bring water for you out of this rock?” 11 And Moses lifted up his hand and struck the rock with his staff twice, and water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their livestock. 12 And the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, “Because you did not believe in me, to uphold me as holy in the eyes of the people of Israel, therefore you shall not bring this assembly into the land that I have given them.”
Moses condemned Gays, because he remembered what happened at his birth: http://wordofloveforyou.com/Mos2.htm http://wordofloveforyou.com/Mos3.htm http://wordofloveforyou.com/Mos4.htm
Moses (Not God) condemns us because:
It is Written: Exodus 1 (King James Version)

Exodus 1:7;

7And the children of Israel were fruitful, and increased abundantly, and multiplied, and waxed exceeding mighty; and the land was filled with them.

8Now there arose up a new king over Egypt, which knew not Joseph.

9And he said unto his people, Behold, the people of the children of Israel are more and mightier than we:

10Come on, let us deal wisely with them; lest they multiply, and it come to pass, that, when there falleth out any war, they join also unto our enemies, and fight against us, and so get them up out of the land.

11Therefore they did set over them taskmasters to afflict them with their burdens. And they built for Pharaoh treasure cities, Pithom and Raamses.

12But the more they afflicted them, the more they multiplied and grew. And they were grieved because of the children of Israel.

13And the Egyptians made the children of Israel to serve with rigour:

14And they made their lives bitter with hard bondage, in morter, and in brick, and in all manner of service in the field: all their service, wherein they made them serve, was with rigour.

15And the king of Egypt spake to the Hebrew midwives, of which the name of the one was Shiphrah, and the name of the other Puah:

16And he said, When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, and see them upon the stools; if it be a son, then ye shall kill him: but if it be a daughter, then she shall live.

17But the midwives feared God, and did not as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the men children alive.

18And the king of Egypt called for the midwives, and said unto them, Why have ye done this thing, and have saved the men children alive?

19And the midwives said unto Pharaoh, Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are lively, and are delivered ere the midwives come in unto them.

20Therefore God dealt well with the midwives: and the people multiplied, and waxed very mighty.

21And it came to pass, because the midwives feared God, that he made them houses.

22And Pharaoh charged all his people, saying, Every son that is born ye shall cast into the river, and every daughter ye shall save alive.

Exodus 2 (King James Version)

Exodus 2
1And there went a man of the house of Levi, and took to wife a daughter of Levi.

2And the woman conceived, and bare a son: and when she saw him that he was a goodly child, she hid him three months.

3And when she could not longer hide him, she took for him an ark of bulrushes, and daubed it with slime and with pitch, and put the child therein; and she laid it in the flags by the river's brink.

4And his sister stood afar off, to wit what would be done to him.

5And the daughter of Pharaoh came down to wash herself at the river; and her maidens walked along by the river's side; and when she saw the ark among the flags, she sent her maid to fetch it.

6And when she had opened it, she saw the child: and, behold, the babe wept. And she had compassion on him, and said, This is one of the Hebrews' children.

7Then said his sister to Pharaoh's daughter, Shall I go and call to thee a nurse of the Hebrew women, that she may nurse the child for thee?

8And Pharaoh's daughter said to her, Go. And the maid went and called the child's mother.

9And Pharaoh's daughter said unto her, Take this child away, and nurse it for me, and I will give thee thy wages. And the women took the child, and nursed it.

10And the child grew, and she brought him unto Pharaoh's daughter, and he became her son. And she called his name Moses: and she said, Because I drew him out of the water.

Gays do not produce Children, and there fore he saw us as a threat to the growth of Gods Chosen People, there fore he condemned us,
In HIS Version of the Law, the MOSIC LAW, Not God's!
And Yes Jesus did speak about this and if you don't mind, I'll let Youtube tell the story (Yeah I am old and my fingers are tried! LOL!)

Youtube Link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLgcEcmtgxI&feature=related

These are the same voices that condem us! (Not Jesus, Our Loving Loving Lord!)

Mattew 23;
Matthew 23 (King James Version)

Matthew 23
1Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

2Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

4For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

5But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,

6And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,

7And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.

8But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

10Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

11But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

12And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

13But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

14Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

15Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

16Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

17Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?

18And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.

19Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?

20Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.

21And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.

22And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.

23Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

24Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

25Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

26Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

27Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

28Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

29Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

30And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

31Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

32Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

34Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

36Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her

Share this post


Link to post
Posted

1 Peter 4:8 (New International Version)
8Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.
Luke 7 (New International Version)

Luke 7
The Faith of the Centurion
1When Jesus had finished saying all this in the hearing of the people, he entered Capernaum. 2There a centurion's servant, whom his master valued highly, was sick and about to die. 3The centurion heard of Jesus and sent some elders of the Jews to him, asking him to come and heal his servant. 4When they came to Jesus, they pleaded earnestly with him, "This man deserves to have you do this, 5because he loves our nation and has built our synagogue." 6So Jesus went with them.
He was not far from the house when the centurion sent friends to say to him: "Lord, don't trouble yourself, for I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. 7That is why I did not even consider myself worthy to come to you. But say the word, and my servant will be healed. 8For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, 'Go,' and he goes; and that one, 'Come,' and he comes. I say to my servant, 'Do this,' and he does it."
9When Jesus heard this, he was amazed at him, and turning to the crowd following him, he said, "I tell you, I have not found such great faith even in Israel." 10Then the men who had been sent returned to the house and found the servant well.

Jesus Raises a Widow's Son
11Soon afterward, Jesus went to a town called Nain, and his disciples and a large crowd went along with him. 12As he approached the town gate, a dead person was being carried out—the only son of his mother, and she was a widow. And a large crowd from the town was with her. 13When the Lord saw her, his heart went out to her and he said, "Don't cry."
14Then he went up and touched the coffin, and those carrying it stood still. He said, "Young man, I say to you, get up!" 15The dead man sat up and began to talk, and Jesus gave him back to his mother.

16They were all filled with awe and praised God. "A great prophet has appeared among us," they said. "God has come to help his people." 17This news about Jesus spread throughout Judea[a] and the surrounding country.

Jesus and John the Baptist
18John's disciples told him about all these things. Calling two of them, 19he sent them to the Lord to ask, "Are you the one who was to come, or should we expect someone else?"
20When the men came to Jesus, they said, "John the Baptist sent us to you to ask, 'Are you the one who was to come, or should we expect someone else?' "

21At that very time Jesus cured many who had diseases, sicknesses and evil spirits, and gave sight to many who were blind. 22So he replied to the messengers, "Go back and report to John what you have seen and heard: The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor. 23Blessed is the man who does not fall away on account of me."

24After John's messengers left, Jesus began to speak to the crowd about John: "What did you go out into the desert to see? A reed swayed by the wind? 25If not, what did you go out to see? A man dressed in fine clothes? No, those who wear expensive clothes and indulge in luxury are in palaces. 26But what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. 27This is the one about whom it is written:
" 'I will send my messenger ahead of you,
who will prepare your way before you.'[c] 28I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."

29(All the people, even the tax collectors, when they heard Jesus' words, acknowledged that God's way was right, because they had been baptized by John. 30But the Pharisees and experts in the law rejected God's purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John.)

31"To what, then, can I compare the people of this generation? What are they like? 32They are like children sitting in the marketplace and calling out to each other:
" 'We played the flute for you,
and you did not dance;
we sang a dirge,
and you did not cry.' 33For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, 'He has a demon.' 34The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners." ' 35But wisdom is proved right by all her children."

Jesus Anointed by a Sinful Woman
36Now one of the Pharisees invited Jesus to have dinner with him, so he went to the Pharisee's house and reclined at the table. 37When a woman who had lived a sinful life in that town learned that Jesus was eating at the Pharisee's house, she brought an alabaster jar of perfume, 38and as she stood behind him at his feet weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears. Then she wiped them with her hair, kissed them and poured perfume on them.
39When the Pharisee who had invited him saw this, he said to himself, "If this man were a prophet, he would know who is touching him and what kind of woman she is—that she is a sinner."

40Jesus answered him, "Simon, I have something to tell you."
"Tell me, teacher," he said.

41"Two men owed money to a certain moneylender. One owed him five hundred denarii,[d] and the other fifty. 42Neither of them had the money to pay him back, so he canceled the debts of both. Now which of them will love him more?"

43Simon replied, "I suppose the one who had the bigger debt canceled."
"You have judged correctly," Jesus said.

44Then he turned toward the woman and said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I came into your house. You did not give me any water for my feet, but she wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45You did not give me a kiss, but this woman, from the time I entered, has not stopped kissing my feet. 46You did not put oil on my head, but she has poured perfume on my feet. 47Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little."

48Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."

49The other guests began to say among themselves, "Who is this who even forgives sins?"

50Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3FJ10qsUNE&feature=related

I would recommend you read the entire Story of Jonathan and David

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtUvREPIdwY

2 Samuel 1:26 (New International Version)

26 I grieve for you, Jonathan my brother;
you were very dear to me.
Your love for me was wonderful,
more wonderful than that of women.
Now What part of "Thou Shall not kill is Here?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSNY9CB5mto

Many Jewish People see the "Ten Commandments" as something they should not do to another Jewish Person,...........and they also hold the view, That the Ten Commandments Only Apply to them, and not one else, for they are "God's Chosen People"

I am not Anti Semitic, I am expressing my point of view and as I feel the Holy Spirit has open my eyes to See!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Fe89jEBEbc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhZF0PT8LEY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b-SfOL9EbQ&feature=related

YOU can decide what Jesus Our Lord meant when he said this:
"Matthew 5:17 (New International Version)

The Fulfillment of the Law
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

Was He talking about the Law of the 10 Commandments or the Mosaic laws?

And then think about this: Matthew 22 (New International Version)

Matthew 22

The Greatest Commandment
34Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question:
36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'
38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Or this,................

Mark 2 (New International Version)

Mark 2
Jesus Heals a Paralytic
1A few days later, when Jesus again entered Capernaum, the people heard that he had come home. 2So many gathered that there was no room left, not even outside the door, and he preached the word to them. 3Some men came, bringing to him a paralytic, carried by four of them. 4Since they could not get him to Jesus because of the crowd, they made an opening in the roof above Jesus and, after digging through it, lowered the mat the paralyzed man was lying on. 5When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven."
6Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7"Why does this fellow talk like that? He's blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?"

8Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, "Why are you thinking these things? 9Which is easier: to say to the paralytic, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up, take your mat and walk'? 10But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins . . . ." He said to the paralytic, 11"I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home." 12He got up, took his mat and walked out in full view of them all. This amazed everyone and they praised God, saying, "We have never seen anything like this!"

The Calling of Levi
13Once again Jesus went out beside the lake. A large crowd came to him, and he began to teach them. 14As he walked along, he saw Levi son of Alphaeus sitting at the tax collector's booth. "Follow me," Jesus told him, and Levi got up and followed him.
15While Jesus was having dinner at Levi's house, many tax collectors and "sinners" were eating with him and his disciples, for there were many who followed him. 16When the teachers of the law who were Pharisees saw him eating with the "sinners" and tax collectors, they asked his disciples: "Why does he eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'?"

17On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Jesus Questioned About Fasting
18Now John's disciples and the Pharisees were fasting. Some people came and asked Jesus, "How is it that John's disciples and the disciples of the Pharisees are fasting, but yours are not?"
19Jesus answered, "How can the guests of the bridegroom fast while he is with them? They cannot, so long as they have him with them. 20But the time will come when the bridegroom will be taken from them, and on that day they will fast.

21"No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment. If he does, the new piece will pull away from the old, making the tear worse. 22And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. If he does, the wine will burst the skins, and both the wine and the wineskins will be ruined. No, he pours new wine into new wineskins."

Lord of the Sabbath
23One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. 24The Pharisees said to him, "Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?"
25He answered, "Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? 26In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions."

27Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."
Matthew 5:17-48 (New International Version)

The Fulfillment of the Law
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
An Eye for an Eye
38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[g] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
Love for Enemies
43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies
and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
1 Corinthians 13:13
1 Corinthians 13 (New International Version)

1 Corinthians 13
Love
1If I speak in the tongues[a] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,
but have not love, I gain nothing.
4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child,

Share this post


Link to post
Posted

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Gn1W3cl400&feature=search

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChLW07FqbLY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=St3U2kBSIgQ&feature=search

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sza4rh1YzsM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fg2AYy4yO9c&feature=search

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=en9ITsIaWZ4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06D2zcGFuXQ&feature=search

Pax,...................................
I am nether great. nor wonderful, but I hope to be a faithful and humble servant of He Who died for us all,.......... I therefore commend you to Him, in my heart, prayers and the whisper of the Holy Spirit,.......... Guide you on your journey,
Home, where someday we shall meet at Heaven's Gate.

Share this post


Link to post
Lindsey_Carter
Posted

Thank you so much for that Andre! I'm always in the mood to learn and I think that before we can really debate with our opponents we have to know everything we can about the arguements that they will throw our way. I just didn't feel as if the religious arguement was really one that had much standing because of the so many different interpretations and because of the fact that many only recognize the Ten Commandments from the OT and not really anything else, or the Mosaic Law as you mentioned. Just seemed a bit off, as if they were showing only part of the "story" and picking and choosing what to talk about but ignoring the part where it made gays "ok". Definitely took me a while to read through all that but I'll definitely be checking into the youtube links you offered.


Share this post


Link to post
Posted

You are welcome Lindsey,This is what you & others need to know to fight those "Vipers"!
SODOM AND GOMORRAH

The story of Sodom and Gomorrah has been used by people to condemn gays. The argument used by them is that God destroyed these cities because the people of these cities were homosexuals. In this section we will show conclusive BIBLICAL evidence that Sodom and Gomorrah were NOT destroyed because of homosexuals. The only book I will use to show this is the Bible. The Bible does not contradict itself because the it is the Word of God and God is not fickle.

The beginning of this story is found in Genesis 13:

Genesis 13:8-13

So Abram said to Lot, "Let's not have any quarreling between you and me, or between your herdsmen and mine, for we are brothers. Is not the whole land before you? Let's part company. If you go to the left, I'll go to the right; if you go to the right, I'll go to the left." Lot looked up and saw that the whole plain of the Jordan was well watered, like the garden of the LORD, like the land of Egypt, toward Zoar. (This was before the LORD destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.) So Lot chose for himself the whole plain of the Jordan and set out toward the east. The two men parted company: Abram lived in the land of Canaan, while Lot lived among the cities of the plain and pitched his tents near Sodom. Now the men of Sodom were wicked and were sinning greatly against the LORD. (NIV)

Abraham and Lot were so wealthy that they had to separate because the land could not support both of them with all their family members, herds, and workers in one place Lot chose to move his family to the twin cities.

The next time we hear about these cities is in Genesis 18:16-33. Here God tells Abraham his plan for Sodom and Gomorrah.

Genesis 18:20-21

Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know." (NIV)

Abraham pleads for these cities because of his nephew Lot. While Abraham and God were talking, the other two angels go to Sodom. Let's read for ourselves what really happened that day:

Genesis 19:1-13

The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. "My lords," he said, "please turn aside to your servant's house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning." "No," they answered, "we will spend the night in the square." But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate.

Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom both young and old-- surrounded the house. They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them." Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing. Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof." "Get out of our way," they replied. And they said, "This fellow came here as an alien, and now he wants to play the judge! We'll treat you worse than them." They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door. But the men inside reached out and pulled Lot back into the house and shut the door. Then they struck the men who were at the door of the house, young and old, with blindness so that they could not find the door. The two men said to Lot, "Do you have anyone else here--sons-in- law, sons or daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of here, because we are going to destroy this place. The outcry to the LORD against its people is so great that he has sent us to destroy it." (NIV)

There are several major holes in the theory that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of homosexuality. First, The idea that "all" the men of Sodom were gay is ridiculous. For one thing, Lot's daughters were pledged to be married to men of Sodom. Second, if all the men were homosexuals, why did Lot offer his daughters to appease them? What good would it do to offer a gay man a woman to have sex with? Finally, these people threatened Lot. If he didn't comply with their wishes they said they would do WORSE to him that to the two visitors. They were also trying to force the door down. They were obviously violent and they were trying to get at two unwilling guests. Whenever you mix sex with violence against an unwilling person you do not have homosexuality, you have RAPE.

There is another story in the Bible in which the same thing happened:

. Judges 19:13-27

He added, "Come, let's try to reach Gibeah or Ramah and spend the night in one of those places." So they went on, and the sun set as they neared Gibeah in Benjamin. There they stopped to spend the night. They went and sat in the city square, but no one took them into his home for the night. That evening an old man from the hill country of Ephraim, who was living in Gibeah (the men of the place were Benjamites), came in from his work in the fields. When he looked and saw the traveler in the city square, the old man asked, "Where are you going? Where did you come from?" He answered, "We are on our way from Bethlehem in Judah to a remote area in the hill country of Ephraim where I live. I have been to Bethlehem in Judah and now I am going to the house of the LORD. No one has taken me into his house. We have both straw and fodder for our donkeys and bread and wine for ourselves your servants-- me, your maidservant, and the young man with us. We don't need anything." "You are welcome at my house," the old man said. "Let me supply whatever you need. Only don't spend the night in the square." So he took him into his house and fed his donkeys. After they had washed their feet, they had something to eat and drink.

While they were enjoying themselves, some of the wicked men of the city surrounded the house. Pounding on the door, they shouted to the old man who owned the house, "Bring out the man who came to your house so we can have sex with him." The owner of the house went outside and said to them, "No, my friends, don't be so vile. Since this man is my guest, don't do this disgraceful thing. Look, here is my virgin daughter, and his concubine. I will bring them out to you now, and you can use them and do to them whatever you wish. But to this man, don't do such a disgraceful thing." But the men would not listen to him. So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight. When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold. (NIV)

Notice the similarity in the stories. Compare Genesis 19:4,5 with Judges 19:22.


Share this post


Link to post
Posted


Genesis 19:4,5

Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom-- both young and old-- surrounded the house. They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."

Judges 19:22

While they were enjoying themselves, some of the wicked men of the city surrounded the house. Pounding on the door, they shouted to the old man who owned the house, "Bring out the man who came to your house so we can have sex with him."

In the account in Judges the wicked men were appeased with the female concubine. This proves they were not homosexuals. They were after sex for power or rape. If you read further you'll learn that the tribe of Benjamin was almost totally destroyed because of this incident. Neither the tribe of Benjamin nor the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were punished because of homosexuality. Both of these accounts clearly describe rape. What the men of Sodom were going to do to the angels in Genesis was what the men of Gibeah did to the traveler's concubine in Judges.

Why were Sodom and Gomorrah destroyed? What were the grievous sins that God judged them worthy of such destruction? What was the great outcry God was referring to in Genesis chapter 18? We don't need to wonder. The Bible tells us exactly why these cities were destroyed.

Ezekiel 16:48-50

As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, your sister Sodom and her daughters never did what you and your daughters have done. "'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen. (NIV)

Ezekiel Chapter 16 is an allegory God used to compare unfaithful Jerusalem to an adulterous wife for committing religious adultery. As you can see God listed the sins of Sodom. No homosexuality is listed there. Those detestable or abominable acts mentioned refereed to the religious rituals popular in that time. We will cover these in the section on false gods.

Deuteronomy 29:22-26

Your children who follow you in later generations and foreigners who come from distant lands will see the calamities that have fallen on the land and the diseases with which the LORD has afflicted it. The whole land will be a burning waste of salt and sulfur-- nothing planted, nothing sprouting, no vegetation growing on it. It will be like the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboiim, which the LORD overthrew in fierce anger.

All the nations will ask: "Why has the LORD done this to this land? Why this fierce, burning anger?" And the answer will be: "It is because this people abandoned the covenant of the LORD, the God of their fathers, the covenant he made with them when he brought them out of Egypt. They went off and worshiped other gods and bowed down to them, gods they did not know, gods he had not given them. (NIV)

Moses was about to die and he predicted the scattering of Israel and the destruction of the land like the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. This destruction of Israel was not prophesied because of homosexuality but because of religious infidelity. This is quite in line with the context of the entire Bible. Of course God promises their restoration in Deuteronomy chapter 30. This complete restoration is about to happen in the end times, but that is another study.

Amos 4:11

"I overthrew some of you as I overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah. You were like a burning stick snatched from the fire, yet you have not returned to me," declares the LORD. (NIV)

If you read the book of Amos you find that God promises to overthrow Israel as He overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah for three things: turning away from God which is religious unfaithfulness, being evil to the poor and living selfishly. Homosexuality is not even addressed.

Jeremiah 23:13,14

"Among the prophets of Samaria I saw this repulsive thing: They prophesied by Baal and led my people Israel astray. And among the prophets of Jerusalem I have seen something horrible: They commit adultery and live a lie. They strengthen the hands of evildoers, so that no one turns from his wickedness. They are all like Sodom to me; the people of Jerusalem are like Gomorrah." (NIV)

Here is yet another comparison of the promised judgment of Israel to the judgment of Sodom and Gomorrah. Once again the theme is religious unfaithfulness, not homosexuality.

Matthew 10:11-15

"Whatever town or village you enter, search for some worthy person there and stay at his house until you leave. As you enter the home, give it your greeting. If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town. (NIV)

Here, Jesus Christ compares the sin of Sodom to the sin of faithlessness in people who reject the Gospel and inhospitality.

Matthew 11:20-24

Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. "Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you." (NIV)

Here the Lord again makes reference to Sodom's destruction as he talks about unrepentant cities that refuse to believe in him or his miracles. This is about religious unfaithfulness and unbelief, not homosexuality.

If you don't know Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior, you can know him right now. Don't be guilty of not believing in Him. Here is what Jesus himself said:

John 3:16-18

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. (NIV)

Notice that Jesus said WHOEVER believes in him shall have eternal life. The condemnation is reserved for WHOEVER does not believe in Him. He made no mention of homosexuals in this passage.

If you recognize that you are a sinner and need Jesus to be the Lord of your life then it is a very simple process. Ask God to forgive you of whatever has separated you from Him. That is what sin is. When you ask Him that he will forgive you:

I John 1:9-10

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar

This is from the website of :
http://www.christiangay.com/he_loves/sodom.htm

Share this post


Link to post
Posted

Time to celebrate the Truth!
For you Sister Lindsey:
it has been said that a "Sad Saint is a sorry one!" So Rejoice!
and
"They that sings,...... prays twice!"
So here ya go!

i hope you dance lee ann womack on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RV-Z1YwaOiw&feature=av2e

In Him who Loves you more then we both can imagine!
your brother in Christ;

PaX (Peace)
Andre~++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Share this post


Link to post
Marianne_Messer
Posted

i keep reading this andre to get inspiration and you are truly blessed and an angel on earth


Share this post


Link to post
Posted

Awwwwwwwwwwwwww Thanks, You are too for making my day, thank you!
For you Sister Marianne, "I shall speak in foreign tongues and be understood".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9-FlrMTLn8

http://thinkexist.com/quotes/st._teresa_of_avila/
Be at peace always with yourself and others, for this very moment Our Father could call you up! So let love enkindle itself as a light that shines forth from the alter of your heart, Awaiting for His return, in prayer always
Your brother in Christ.

Andre~++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Share this post


Link to post
Marianne_Messer
Posted

oh andre that was so inspiring and uplifting, i dont know where or how you find these buy i'm glad you do your sister in christ marianne


Share this post


Link to post
Posted

Er,............................um,.................It's so embarrassing!

I guess there's NO way around it, I am prolly older and therefore have seen and heard much, and I trust Google and youtube as well and a lot! Well, I am sure the Holy Spirit comes in there some where too! : ) <3 Loiving you In Christ
Andre~+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Maybe one day the internet will be really useful, and we can hug each other, prehaps, someday!


Share this post


Link to post
Posted

Also I think, that I began reading, praying and meditating at a very early age, because I was not going to settle for Those people whose choose to use God's Word against us, and leave it at that!
My first suicide attempt, was after all, the event took place in my class room where a well meaning but misplaced and misspoken teacher of mine whom I love and respected much, Threw the Bible down on my desk if front of all of my classmates, and looked with a death stare into my eyes, and told me, that the Bible said that I would be better off "dead" then to be "gay"! I was totally shocked! And I read and reread the passage that says:
Matthew 18 (King James Version)

Matthew 18
1At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?

2And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,

3And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

4Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

5And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.

6But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

7Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

8Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

9And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

10Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

11For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

12How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?

13And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.

14Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

15Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

16But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

17And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

18Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

19Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

20For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

21Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

22Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

23Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.

24And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.

25But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.

26The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

27Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.

28But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.

29And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

30And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.

31So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.

32Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:

33Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?

34And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

35So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.


King James Version (KJV).
I was in a Children's home Called Clyburn at 2201 West Cold Spring Lane, in Baltimore, MD, where it occurred, and was at the same time even though every one knew I was gay there, and I suffered much because of it,
Also there were somewhat awestruck at the paradox, of me claiming to be "Christian", so much so that they would make fun of me equally as bad, calling me, "Little Jesus"! For I think I was only 9 or 10 then October 8, 1965, was when I was sent there.
So I threw my left wrist out the 2ND floor window, because I was very sad and perplexed at this paradox of me being both Christian and gay. I was in such spiritual turmoil, that I forgot or didn't even think of the kids who where just outside one story down playing bat-mitten, if I had I would had chosen another window.
Mr Menzies, was right on, when he saw me come home that day, (The school was on the grounds of the childrens home) and he tried to talk with me, but all I could do was cry,..........I didn't want my beloved teacher to get into trouble.
So he sent me up to my room to rest because he remarked that I "Look as pale as a ghost or death" and sent Richard, my "room mate to go up with me while he called a doctor.
I begged Richard 3 times to leave and he didn't.
So I said, Ok, then stay, but you should really move away from the window, which at that point, he was really paying attention to me, and he did so moved, for his bed was right under it.
So sorry if this will and is disturbing to you.
So I ran as fast as I could in what little space there was, throwing my left wrist threw the glass!
Richard was a rich dark colored boy, but as I turned to see him, he really did lose most of his coloring, as my wrist was spitting blood everywhere.
I looked at it and it almost and still does to this day, might remind you of someone who had the Stigmata, for it formed as perfect almost one inch circumference just below the palm of my hand.
I ran after Richard who flew like a bird to inform Mr Menzies of what had occurred, poor Mr Menzies also almost fainted at the site of my blood loss and so much of it!. He quickly removed his belt and wrapped it tight around my arm, to stop the blood. then he took me to the kitchen sink to pick out the best he could the shards of glass still embedded in my small wrist.
As the window was over the kitchen sink with kids fighting to look and see what had happened, he ordered them away, but they knew he was too busy to make them so they stayed put!
he ran me over the great hill into his car and drove me to the closest hospital, I kept telling Him, that I needed to die,with tears in my eyes, that that seemed as though it wasn't going to happened, at least not that day.
When all was said and done, Ms Vivian Clark Smith had a hard time justifying her actions, but they allowed her to keep her job.
Since I chose Catholicism as my faith back then, I was sent or had to often times walk to Church to hear Mass and attend Sunday school, run by the School Sisters of Note Dame.
After Sunday school one of the Nun;s called me into her class room, and ask ed me what happened?
I told her the whole story,......................
Sister began to cry which I was already crying, and she had me sit on her lap, and she kissed my bandaged wrist, and then whispered something curious in my ear,............I can't recall all of it or her exact words, but after carefully thinking about them all these years, it came down to this.\: That she too was "gay' more or less, and that just because she was a Nun, didn't make God love her more then me! She said that God loved me so much and that was maybe why my life was spared that day, so that one day, I could show the world the wound(s), well at least one of them, on my body, because we are all members of Christ's family, and no one could tell any one else that they well less deserving of His love, for they didn't have the right to, even if they thought they did!

Years later, as I read the Office of the Hours going to High School, I thought no one notice for you know how teenagers are on a school bus, but when I asked them to sign my year book, most of them (even though they knew I was "gay") saw That God had touched me, and they saw me more as a Christian then as a gay and they -well most of them wouldn't dare to judge me, because I loved every one.
I should guess that I should mention, other then reading my Office of the Hours going to school, that I never went inside the shower room after class, because in my eyes, I did not wish to offend nor scare anyone because I was gay, and they somehow knew and respected me because of that!
Sometimes, it is the little things that gets notice more so then the big ones.
Just a small act of consideration, kindness or forgiveness is all it takes to touch others hearts.
Well that it enough for tonight, my fingers are cramped again from too much typing!
I just want to say, that I love God more then anything or anyone, but through that love,.............. I am able to love all, even the "haters", who wish I had died that day back then.
Praise God in Everything you do except acts of evil and malice.

Pax

Andre~+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
In short after that window mishap, I began reading everything about God, from the Confessions of St Augustine, to Tomas Merton, Butler's: Lives of the Saints to Dante's Divine Comedy!


Share this post


Link to post
Lindsey_Carter
Posted

Andre I too thank you very much for your overflowing wisdom. You helped me a lot last week when I had a "Christian" from my very own town attack me for my homosexuality and condemn me and they used the story of Sodom and Gomorrah and thanks to you and looking over the scriptures you had pointed out I was able to show them a thing or two about the Bible and all they had left to say to me was that "people like you disgust me"... which means they had nothing left to say besides degrade my character which was still a win for me because they had nothing left to say in "Jesus' name" against me. I sincerely thank you!


Share this post


Link to post
Posted

Dearest Sister Lindsey,
If you take away some peoples hate and fears, it who be fair and sad to say, that there would be nothing left, which I am sure that they shall see that on judgement day.

Matthew 7 (New International Version)

Matthew 7
Judging Others
1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

6"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.

Ask, Seek, Knock
7"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
9"Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

The Narrow and Wide Gates
13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
A Tree and Its Fruit
15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

The Wise and Foolish Builders
24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."
28When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, 29because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law.

This is the link(s) of the order of the Nuns, that gave me comfort in that time of despair, My Sunday School Nuns of the Nun who comforted me and kissed my bandaged, and told me that not ever even she, could tell me that who God Loved more, her or me, but she wanted me to know, that she had no doubts that God did Indeed Love me, and that I should conduct myself accordly


Share this post


Link to post
Posted

http://www.ssnd.org/External/pg_history.htm

http://www.ssnd.org/

I just wanted you guys to know that the story is true, and these are the Sister(s) that helped me.

I am ashamed to share this with you,...........but here it is.

When My mother got me back from that home, (Clyburn) mostly because she swore that she was going to or was actually about to sue them because of my suicide attempt,...............My mother moved several times to elude the authorities, social workers and investigators,
But she left the State and moved from Maryland to Virginia, when I told her that My Second to oldest brother Robert (Bobby), had tried to make me have s__ with my sister while he stared at us, in our innocence lost, as he Master___ed, and I was gain,.after all children are curious about such things and if an adult in the family says it is OK, then you believe them or want to trust them at least you say to yourself that they are acting in your best interests.
This is the same brother (Monster) who tried to kill me twice to hide his sexual abuse of me twice, before the age of 3 and why our mother had abandoned us, twice, the 2ND time, was in 1959, when my youngest brother, Michael, who was at that time least then a year old and was put up for adoption straight away,.........she would never see him again,.ever.
In any case, when I was just over my sister, (I know this will be hard to swallow or imagine,............But I saw the fear in my sisters' face, and then,..........her face was "gone!",....I saw a vision , of that saintly Sister, who had given me comfort, and she was leaning out the Sunday school window, screaming at me to Stop! Get up, and to get away! from what I or we were about to do, and that God didn't approve of such things! I was totally in shock and scared to death of that vision more so then the cruelty of my older brother! So I jump off my sister Renia and ran into my bed room, and locked the door, which he kicked in and ask me wtf was wrong with me?
And I was so scared, that I stood up to him, and said that "He was the Son of the devil and that he was going to Hell for everything he has done to us!
Which he beated me up pretty good which left marks that my mother saw, and I told her what had happened, (Not about the vision) and she kicked him out of the house!
We were then living in Glen Burnie Maryland,.............which she moved from to VA. These things I share with you is with a heavy heart.
I would not say these things if they were in fact a lie or untrue,
For I would be breaking THE 9th COMMANDMENT Exodus 20:16 "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour."
When I was in foster care, night after night I suffered from night terrors, because God would play over and over and over again the facts in nightmares, so that Although I was young., I could share them with you and the world not to make Robert look bad or that you pass judgement on him, but so that The Holy Name of God's is indeed ours to proclaim, as we love and follow Him, even though others (people, who have little to no understanding, about such things) but God knows the truth, which I have put down here for you tonight.
One of the other "odd" things is that our Foster Mother Ms Weizmann, said to me, as we were about to go back to our mother, that she was going to leave her house and property to me, and that she wanted me to visit her.
Maybe that is why in 1966-7 My mother and father had my name changed from Andre Diniz to Andre Zitouniadis. I thought this was just because I would be given my birth fathers real last name, (If that were true,.................then why didn't they also have my younger sisters named changed also?) I am not sure how to go about checking such things out.
I do have the Properties address, thanks to Google Earth and my Sisters memory,.........that we once lived on Governors Bridge Road, and that our Neighbors were the Hittles,........and odder still, "The Legend: surrounding the Bridge of which there are several"
But could those legends have to do with ME? and that our Mother had abandoned us? You decide!
Here are the Links from Youtube from young people who do not know me share You yoursleves can do a Youtube search for : Governors Bridge Road Maryland,..........The Woman Ghost could have or be my Mother the baby me, and then "The Black Car" were /was or could be the Social Workers who came to us and ask us if we wanted to "Go back home and stay with our Natural Birth mother, which was a hugh mistake, she had gotten drunk 2 years before in VA and tried to comment suicide running her car into a tree-We found this out later)
In any case : Governors Bridge Road Maryland: Youtube, there are a couple stories, that's how urban legends are.

I can actually see these young people pass my Foster Mothers road to our house;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUF9lqAk05I


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0UUaoqoMWQ


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-904gZVZKk


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3nRi58uW5c

Of these things I can only say, that where there is Hope born into this world the forces of Hell will not relent and will do every evil thing, with in it's power to stop it, and so it has been with me.

We are all sent here with a purpose . I have known (I swear to you that this is true) that I was born to write this book, to touch and change hearts and to give hope to those who have/had none.

I did not become a Monster, a alcoholic or a substance abuser, (Drugs) I did try on many occasions to take my life because it was so hard to bear what I have not only gone through and survived, but now must give testimony To Him who sent me to you. I am nothing, Please do not think that I am great or a saint although when I was quite young that was and to a point still is my wish, but Only out Father in Heaven can decide my case and if I did His Holy will by writing this book.
It is a odd thing, to be growing up, and hearing "whispers" in my ear, that I must remember and not forget this or that, and if that wasn't bad enough, then to have Nightmares play over and over again, so that I would not forget.
I.e., I remember a diaper change, where every one who was there was staring at me, maybe because I had just been circumcised, for I remember their comments about it, but I thought if they wanted a show then I would give them one and promptly sprayed everyone there!
I do not wish to offend any one, but I do want to point out that I was made to remember everything!

Well that is all for now. Please keep me and my Friend in Hunagary in your Prayers Laci, for he is assistant me with the Book,
Thank you God Bless you!

Your Brother in Christ
Andre~++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Share this post


Link to post
Marianne_Messer
Posted

wat to go lindsay!


Share this post


Link to post
Marianne_Messer
Posted

andre you have had such a hard life i am glad that god has been with you as he has with me to get you to this point in your life you need to finish your book to help others and let them know there is love and hope throuh christ


Share this post


Link to post
Posted

Thanks, I am trying, but this book is like one day at a time.
I tired to get the records from social services (Baltimore, MD) and also from the home which is no longer there, and no mention of it on the Net even, and the Mental Hospitals and or from the state archives, because the asylums are now closed, shut down , because many of them had asbestos in them, the buildings are still there because the clean up (so they say) would cost too much, to either tear them down and rebuild something else in there place.
I believe that we as a society still need them.
Not to lock up gays, but many of the homeless we see everyday, are too sick (mentally impaired) to 1) have a picture ID 2) know where and to whom they should go to for shelter, food, clean clothes and proper hygiene, and medicine when needed, and to be looked after. I have been witness to not only thugs beating these poor souls up. simply because they know that they can and do get away with it and to them going to the bathroom right in front of people and many other things, digging in the garbage for food , to walking right out in front of cars and so on,
Many of the crimes we see committed are because people are unable to seek and receive the help they need and want, OK so don't want it, but they need it anyway,........A very good example of this (No I am not defending them, because I have already pointed out I was a victim of child molestation), Is Pedophiles! They can not tell anyone that they have such a problem and seek help before they can act out or abuse a child, with out their Doctor, Nurse, social worker , Psych professional, having to report by law that they are so inclined to do said acts! and then they are branded for the rest of the lives as a "Sexual Predator" when although it is unlawful, it is also a Mental Illness, that warrants treatment before they can act out and hurt (or worse) a child.
What is it they say?
"A once of prevention, is worth a pound of cure!"
Yes, what they do is criminal, but it is also a quite serious mental disorder that should and needs to be addressed before they can harm children.
Sorry for being honest here, but what is more criminal. the state doing nothing to prevent it and offer remedies and address the issues OR wait until they have commented the unimaginable?
Also many other crimes, like school shootings and so on would or might stop because we, "The United States" would have a good mental services so that these people can defuse, before they cause harm!
and people still wonder why these things happen, this IS why!
The other old saying is: "Why Lock the barn -After the horse is out?"
This would also create more jobs, such as Psych Techs, Nursing Assistants, Nurses and Doctors as well as the supportive staff, needed to run the above mention Hospitals, Maintenance, House keeping, Office workers, and other support staff. Like Sercurity and a over sight board to make sure that the abuses I suffered never occur again! Am I being lame or does this make sense to anyone else but me?


Share this post


Link to post
Marianne_Messer
Posted

makes sense to me


Share this post


Link to post
Posted

I think it might might true to some degree, that most (Not all mind you, I believe this President is awesome and is doing everything he can to set things right, for us and others, but it takes time and our support) Politicians, are not known to have common cents, (misspelled on purpose) they go with the Money.
In example, President Regan was shot by a person with a history of mental illness,..................so what does he do about a week later? He Signs into law the release of most of the Nations mental patients, from the Asylum because he believed in the ACLU argument that they had the right to be free, and were being held against their will, which is as UN- American as Gays being treated different from their straight counterparts because of religious absurdity and objections? No, He did it for One reason and one reason only after all is said and done. To balance the budget! By dumping "mental" and other people with mental disabilities, to fend for themselves, to shut down those hospitals, the staff, orderlies, Psych techs, Social workers, and all the other staff, that was until then gainfully employed and paying taxes. Now many people with mental disabilities, are in the criminal justice system, for let's say stealing food and so on because they really don't know any better or how to go about taking care of themselves, and they do breed, Lice and other diseases, because they seldom have the chance to take showers or baths, and freeze to death or die of heat stroke inside of section 8 buildings, that treat them like animals, in the heat of old buildings with no air conditioning! Am I making this up? No, I am One of them! You can not go through what my sister and I have been through with out permanent mental scars for the rest of your life.
Sometimes the only people who can see the horror of something are the people who survived it or are living it.
Sorry for rambling,.......but I get really mad when I hear that a Mental person what shot to death by a number of cops, because they were holding a pencil, and they use the excuse, that they shot the person "Because they feared for their lives!" Especially if that person was/is a minority (or so it seems to me).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdS5o2H_3Gs


We can change the world!

Andre~

Share this post


Link to post
Posted

Oops, thanks you Sister Marianne Messer!
I is so mental I 4-got my manners!


Share this post


Link to post
Marianne_Messer
Posted

we can and we will change the world it will just take time love your sister in Christ marianne


Share this post


Link to post

×